communication vs bullying

[kareina]

The author tammypierce has been posting recently on the topic of bullying, prompted by a now-famous incident of bullying which ended in the suicide of the victim. Today's post on the subject discussed the fact that many women are inclined to blame other women when their men "cheat" on them, and when this happens words like "slut" tend to be used. This is a topic which is important to me, and I wound up leaving a rather long comment in reply. Since it was a long comment, I decided that it was worth sharing here, as well, since not everyone I care about will see it there.

I, for one, am grateful that there is a good alternative to the whole "cheating" culture. Polyamory, with its emphasis on honesty and communication between all parties involved, as well as communication with anyone with whom one of the people in the relationship would like to be involved, avoids many of the problems such as you describe here.

There are some people out there who claim to be genuinely monogamist--they say that they literally never find anyone else even a little bit attractive once they've found their "one true love". This is very, very rare. Most people are human, and will find more than one person attractive in their life.

In the latter case they have a variety of choices 1) they can choose the polyamory approach and form stable, honest, communication-filled relationships with more than one person. 2) they can deny that aspect of themselves and choose only one person with whom to be involved, "forsaking all others" with whom they would otherwise be compatible 3) they can claim to follow the party line and do monogamy whilst lying about who they are with and "cheating" on their "partner".

To my eye it is an easy decision. I will always choose truthfulness, honor, communication, and love over self-denial or dishonesty.

I, too, have been a victim of the "blame the girl" mentality, where people who should know better chose to bandy around the word "slut".

When I in high school I fell head over heels in love with an intellegent young man, who had the best library. We were together for a while and then he felt the need to end the relationship for reasons I never did understand. I was heartbroken, and still totally smitten with him. A couple of years later my best friend, who had always been a self-described "flirt", who often stated that she wanted to have lots of fun before "settling down", started dating my first love. Meanwhile, I started dating someone else, and the relationship had its ups and downs, as they do, and we eventually decided to go our separate ways.

Sometime later, when my best friend was in the hospital with mono, my first love was visiting my house, and we discovered that the attraction we had felt for one another was still there. We did the right thing and called my best friend to ask her if she was ok with our spending time cuddling and kissing. She told him to do whatever he wanted, and we enjoyed some very sweet affection (not sex; I was still too young to be willing to go that far).

Much to my surprise, when my "best friend" got out of the hospital she wrote me a note expressing her unhappiness with my betrayal and stated that she never wanted to speak with me again. She then spread rumors about me claiming that I was a "slut" (never mind that I'd kissed only three people in my life at that point), and my final year at high school was very difficult and painful as a result.

Even though that incident took place many years before the term "polyamory" had been coined, my instinct was to approach everyone involved with honest communication. Her choice to close off communication and spread hurtful rumors broke my heart just as much as the ending of any other relationship can do. This incident underscored for me the paramount importance of communication in all relationship, romantic or not. People who choose to eschew communication are the ones who also choose paths of bullying, hate, and violence. That is not a path that I find acceptable.

Comments

[taligalicia.livejournal.com]

I'm a monogamist. I understand polyamory, however...I find it slightly insulting that you would claim my choice to be self denying or dishonest to myself or my partner. I think it's a lifestyle choice. Sure I meet other men who I think. if I were single I would totally fall for them" but I don't see that as being dishonest, nor do I see it as denying myself anything if I choose not to persue the other man.

[kareina.livejournal.com]

I didn't mean to imply that there is dishonesty in practicing monogamy--so long as the parties involved are actually practicing it there usually isn't. There is, however, a self-denial component *if* you see others you would otherwise be attracted to, and choose not to peruse that attraction because you've already got someone. The dishonesty only comes in when, as happens all too often, people claim to be a monogamist, and still pursue other attractions.

So please don't take my words as an insult. Heck, many would say that successful self-denial is praise.

[taligalicia.livejournal.com]

I think it was more your implication that if being attracted to others yet choosing to stay with just one is self denial. I accept that I do appreciate others, bit I choose not to persue that path. I do not percieve it as self denial. It's a choice I've made. It doesn't mean I'm being dishonest with anyone. If anything I'm more honest thatn some who deny they had eyes for anyone else when they have. I just don't see it as self denial. Sef control yes, but not self denial. You are fond of your lifestyle choice and thats fine, but don't bash oher people's choices either. Maybe you'd like to choose a word less confrontational than Self-Denial. Its just like you don't hate food, you just choose not to eat it after a certain time of day.

oh, that took more words to say than I expected it to when I started typing...

[kareina.livejournal.com]

I guess it all depends on who one sees as the target audience. If you read this as an essay with a goal to convert others to my way of thinking (which, given that it was posted on line where others could see it, is a reasonable guess), then perhaps that is not the best word to use. However, if you read it as it was written, as a collection of my thoughts, for me, about which aspects I perceive as contributing to the choices I make for myself (which, given that is was posted in my personal journal, is also a reasonable conclusion), then the only question is do *I* perceive it as self-denial?

The answer to that is, yes, actually, I do. In the other comments hrj said ""Self-denial" is a bit of a loaded term. It strongly implies "denying a part of yourself" as opposed to "denying something to yourself". Someone who chooses to be monogamous even though attracted to more than one individual isn't denying that attraction any more than someone at an all-you-can-eat buffet who chooses to consume a sensible, nutritionally-balanced meal." For me, choosing to limit myself to a nutritionally-balanced meal in only the quantity that my body actually needs, when faced with an all-you-can-eat buffet *is* self-denial, depending on other factors.

It is *easy* for me to attend an evening party, see a table groaning with lots of yummy food, and eat none of it whatsoever, if it happens to be late enough at night that my body's interest in food has turned off. During the day, when my body craves food, it is still possible for me to eat sensibly at such a buffet if a reasonable portion of the choices are things I wouldn't wish to eat anyway (I'm a very fussy eater with an aversion to anything containing wine or vinegar, which includes a surprisingly large sub-set of food). However, put me in front of a table full of things I like, at a time of day when I'm hungry and I will either eat more than my body needs for fuel just then, or I will feel some emotional distress for denying myself the enjoyment of the yummy food. For me it is both about denying myself something I would like, *and* about denying an intrinsic part of my nature (I gain much pleasure in eating things I enjoy at a time of day when my body is interested in food).

In a way choosing not to eat things I like *is* being untrue to a portion of my nature. In my youth I didn't deny that portion of my nature--if yummy food crossed my path during the day, I ate it, without any regard to the question "does my body need this particular food to fuel my activities and build healthy replacement cells?". I also didn't get much exercise beyond walking from the couch (where I was reading and eating) to the fridge (to get more food) and back again. Had I stayed on that path I would have had much pleasure, but would not have a healthy body. Instead, when I got older, I chose to practice that aspect of self-denial, limiting that pleasure to only a frequency appropriate to keep myself healthy.

Likewise, while it hasn't happened in a few years that I've fallen in love with someone new, I have vivid memories of the one time I attempted to date a monogamist, and what it felt like to be in a situation wherein I did fall in love with someone new and then had to choose between hurting the monogamist or denying myself the opportunity to fully express the love I felt for the new friend. In that case, I asked myself "which would I regret more when I am 80--missing out on this opportunity to share a loving relationship with a wonderful individual, or hurting someone else I care about?" Even so, it was not an easy decision, and I resolved then and there that I never wanted to be put in such a position again.

and the final paragraph, since the word limit was exceeced

[kareina.livejournal.com]

So, yes, for me, it would be self-denial to attempt to lead a monogamistic life. I'm sorry you see it as "confrontational", and I assure you that should it ever be my goal to write an essay to convert others to my point of view, I'll look for some other way to say it. However, for an essay for me, recording for myself some of the factors that I perceive as leading to my own choices, I feel the word is the correct one. Yes, I have posted my essay publicly, and others will have reactions to it, and that is ok, because they are all entitled to do so. In the process they learn something about my thought processes and feelings as I experience them this week, and, should they share their reactions, I learn something of their thought processes and reactions this week. Some other week I might think of it in different terms. Some other week the same terms might trigger different reactions in the same people.

[hunrvogt.livejournal.com]

I will never, ever understand the women that blame the "other" women rather than blaming the one who broke the promise. It boggles my mind. It really does. Especially when they verbally condone it.

Option 2 should be about honesty and communication too. In fact, strong monogamous realationships require honesty and communication every bit as much as I suspect strong polyamorous ones do.

I do think it's fair to identify an element of self denial in option 2. Option 3 is about pleasure regardless of pain. While option 1 meets the classical definition of Hedonism in terms of optimizing pleasure (major pleasure, little to no pain).

For me the self-denial is almost un-noticeable. The best comparison I could think to give you probably relates to materialism. I tend not to find myself voraciously materialistic, but I suspect with my life in private industry and your life in academia, that I am more materialistic than you. From where I sit, acquiring material goods takes a certain commitment to a specific professional career choices. Your career focus seems to be more on knowledge and variety than on amassing material wealth. From where I sit you deny yourself goods and services because you have chosen a different path. Both Dr's different paths and focuses.

Not exactly your original point on bullying, but perhaps that makes sense on the monogamy front?

[kareina.livejournal.com]

Yes, I agree, all forms of relationships require honesty and communication, be they romantic or platonic, monogamist or polyamorous.

From what you say here, and in your journal, you do sound like one of those true monogamists; so happy in your own relationship that you don't really notice the other options out there, and so it is easy not to pursue them. I admire and respect that when it happens, but am all to aware how very rare that is, both in the real world, and in "literature" (both in the sense of books and plays as written throughout the ages, and modern TV and movies).

It is difficult that literature on the one hand holds up monogamy as an "ideal" for which we "should" strive, and on the other holds up countless examples of how impossible that goal can be, for so very many people. Rather than living in a world which vilifies people for having the audacity to care for more than one person at a time, I prefer to live in a world where it is ok to love all whom thou wilt, an no one need ever lie about adhering to a rule which doesn't fit.

[hunrvogt.livejournal.com]

"It is difficult that literature on the one hand holds up monogamy as an "ideal" for which we "should" strive, and on the other holds up countless examples of how impossible that goal can be, for so very many people."

Ain't that the truth!

[massaria.livejournal.com]

Yeah but you could take this story and use it to verify the postulate that if you are honest, things go wrong anyway. I'm not saying being honest isn't the way to go, but I know that every single time I have been honest with someone in a situation like this it has not gone well.

Even when you are honest doesn't mean things will go well. People often don't want to hear the truth and put blame where it is convenient, rather than justified. It takes a very self assured person to know the "truth" from all sides and act based on was is, rather than what they think should be.

Even when you are in a polyamorous relationship or some other non-exclusive relationship and everyone is communicating things can still go very wrong and be very painful. It's often not that people are eschewing communication, but exactly the opposite; the communicate but they don't *agree* or don't want to believe that truth.

[kareina.livejournal.com]

Things can go wrong anyway when you are honest, but I'd rather have the chance that it will go wrong despite honestly (and the corresponding chance that it will work), than the certainty that it will go wrong through dishonesty.

[callistabee.livejournal.com]

I guess, that I don't believe honor, honesty and sexuality are related variables. That is to say, I believe they can be present or not in any model of a relationship. People are either concerned about the welfare of their partners or they aren't and their actions will be driven by their motivation.

I have a high twitch factor with the word "honesty". You write about how painful bullying is, and so often people use the word "honest" to hurt others with impunity. Opinions so often masquerade as "honest" responses that need to be shared regardless of how they land. Unless the honesty is truly delivered with the the goal of making thing better, as far as I am concerned it can be left unshared.

Honesty on how you relate and want to be related to in a relationship is imperative for a healthy relationship. I do not draw any negatives from that. Self Denial is a somewhat negatively charged word for self discipline or good self choices. No one I know responds to everything in their environment. We all make choices and hopefully we make the choices that are best for ourselves and the people we love.

[hrj.livejournal.com]

"Self-denial" is a bit of a loaded term. It strongly implies "denying a part of yourself" as opposed to "denying something to yourself". Someone who chooses to be monogamous even though attracted to more than one individual isn't denying that attraction any more than someone at an all-you-can-eat buffet who chooses to consume a sensible, nutritionally-balanced meal. Or someone who chooses to focus on a specific set of crafts and hobbies rather than diving into every new interest that comes along.

It's good that you're happy about the particular life choices you've made, but given that several readers have had the same reaction I did, you might want to figure out if you could describe it in a way that doesn't imply that yours is the only honest and rational choice.

[kareina.livejournal.com]

I'll think on that--I hadn't looked at the different implications of self denial, but just wrote the above quickly this morning. There are, likely, better ways to communicate what I thought I was trying to say.

[kareina.livejournal.com]

Some thoughts about why I think that word fits the essay I wrote are included in a reply to a comment by taligalicia. I agree it would be a very bad word to use should I ever have the goal of convincing others of my point of view, because of the various implications you mention. However, it does, to me, fit the way I feel about the subject.

[vesta-aurelia.livejournal.com]

Oh, whew! I'm not the only one who had an extremely visceral reaction to that paragraph! (now I don't feel so dumb)

I think of polyamory like... coffee.
It's great for other people, but it gives me hives.

:)

[kareina.livejournal.com]

Yup, exactly. No one alternative will be best for everyone, but I'm very happy that there *are* alternatives, and we don't all have to try to fit the same mould. My post included some of the reasons I thought of, as I typed, for why *I* feel that my choices are the best for me. The target audience as I wrote? Me. I'm ok with others having different reactions, no one else needs to agree with me, but anyone who chooses to read it has a bit of an idea of what thoughts when through my head when I read the post which triggered this one.

[mushroom-maiden.livejournal.com]

my heart hurts, Reia.

[kareina.livejournal.com]

Hugs!

Remember that my story took place before you were even born--while it was brought to my memory by what I read, normally years go by without my thinking about it at all...

[imdonnan.livejournal.com]

From the 30,000 foot view, there are times when the truth can hurt. For example, if a child walks up to an overweight adult and says "your fat". Social norms would say that a responsible parent would apologize to the adult and pull the child aside and explain why their *truthful* comment was not nice.

Ok is if you look at it one way, the bare bones fact is we live in a world of denial. The word I like to use is choice. Not to sound too lofty ‘cause lord knows I have made some bad choices that I would not want to repeat but... You choose to not eat candy all the time. You choose to go to school, get education and a degree rather than spend the same amount of time watching TV. You choose not to yell at someone when you are mad at them (you choose to be mad too). The list goes on and on. In each case a choice was made to deny instant gratification for the long term good.

Relationships are far more complicated but there is still ‘denial’ in open and closed relationships. In both styles honesty is the best policy. So in a way if you are in a poly’ relationship you make the choice to tell your primary partner that you are twitterpated with someone new and ask for approval. If we want to be devoid of denial why tell anyone? Just do it. Then when you are found out you lay out the facts. You saw. You wanted. You did. *Truthful* but not nice.

IMHO being a monogamist is not buying into the cheating culture anymore than polyamory. Monogamy also has an “emphasis on honesty and communication”. We both know someone that was polyamory that had a wide variety of old and new “friends” and at the same time he was only honest some of the time. Does that make polyamory, across the board, buying into a cheating culture?

Each type of relationship has a pro and con. I don’t think either promotes dishonesty or denial more than the other. What you do with the truth and choices are up to you in the type of relationship you are in.

[kareina.livejournal.com]

It is very interesting to see which aspects of what I thought I was saying each reader sees and responds to. From what I could tell when I was writing (and can still see in the word on the screen) I stated that today's poly culture emphasizes honesty and communication, I stated that I see monogamy as requiring an aspect of self denial for all but those rare few for whom falling in love really does mean that they are truly interested in only one person. I did not, in any way, address in the original post the fact that monogamist relationships also require communication and honesty to work, but I did state that in a reply to one of the comments. I did state that the cheating culture is based on a combination of dishonesty and lack of communication.

Then, for reasons of balance I contrasted what I see as the biggest advantages of the poly community with the biggest disadvantage I see for each of the other two options. Since Monogamy also requires honesty and communication, I contrasted the right to love whomever thou wilt on the poly side, with the limitations of loving the first (or current, depending on the strictness of one's definition) person to whom you commit on the monogamist side. I then contrasted the both of them against the dishonesty inherent with the cheating culture side of the triangle. The balance of the sentence made sense to me when I wrote it, but, clearly, to very few (any?) of my readers.

To me, the whole point of the essay is that I have joy that we've got choices--one can buy into the cheating point of view, one can choose monogamy, or one can choose polyamory. One of these choices I totally disprove of. One of them I see as appropriate for a much more limited subset of the population than Hollywood would have us believe is true, and the other is the one I am happy with for me.

I don't equate monogamy with buying into the cheating culture, but I do know that a terribly high percentage of the "cheaters" out there *claim* to be doing monogamy. Perhaps if there were less of an emphasis on monogamy in our culture, fewer people would lie about doing it...

And the "bad example" you refer to above is one of the reasons I've always chosen communication and honesty, and asked it of my partners. I don't every want some busy body coming up to me and saying "do you know what your partner has been up to?" (as happens as a result of that person's actions more than once), without being able to say "why, yes, as a matter of fact, I do."

[imdonnan.livejournal.com]

One of the aspects of poly that has not been talked about is 'temping fate'. Wonder if you find someone you that you connect with more than your primary person? The connection could be they are better in a conversation or intamamently they are better fit or or or...

It seems that most poly's seem to be fishing for bigger fish to trade up to or they like the feeling of a new relationship. If you are the person on the other side you have to keep moving too because you never know when the music will stop and you will not be in a chair. This can put the whole relationship on uneven ground. Your looking, their looking, they hit a homerun for the weekend while you count the dustbunnies alone or visa-versa.

It comes down to what you are comfortable with. All of that aside, I am ok if people want to be poly as well as those that are not. I am ok with straight, bi or gay. I hold no judgement on my part other than I feel that people should know the pro's and con's. No one style should be a perfect fit for all of us. Everyone needs to find the type of relationship that works for them.

[madryn-1960.livejournal.com]

I make no judgement about what people do in their own lives (as long as abuse is not involved) but, yes, I often wonder if poly folks are tempting fate. I don't wanna be counting dust-buniies whilse my man is out cruisin' for a better/more interesting bed-mate. He might come home for his dinner later, but...what if he doesn't? Any anyway, I know what I'd been doing with dinner, the schmuck! That's why poly is not for me, I guess.

[kareina.livejournal.com]

lol! Your perspective is so very, very different from mine. Poly, for me, has *nothing* to do with seeking better/more interesting bed mates, and everything to do with acknowledging that some friendships include a love of a romantic sort. It brings me great joy to see people I love happy, even when that happiness stems from their falling in love with someone other than me. I don't have any need to be the one to cause happiness in the people I care about, it just matters to me that they be happy. Besides, even better than to have someone I love fall in love with someone new and to be happy is to have both(or however many) of us fall in love with the same person, and have that person love both(or however many) of us in return. I honestly don't care if sex is involved, I'm all about the loving connection. Sometimes it is nice to spend time with one or more of my loved ones, others it is nice to know that they are spending time with people they care about whilst I'm busy doing something I enjoy.

[madryn-1960.livejournal.com]

I guess that's the difference between "friendship" love and "marriage" love. The intensity is just not the same. I love to see my friends happy, and in intimate relationships. I love to see my husband happy too, and sharing time with his friends, but I doubt many women would be happy to see their husband being intimate with another woman, and I certainly would not. You see it as self-denial, I see it as self-discipline, and an affirmation of my love and his that neither would seek deep intimacy with another.

I think it's the "depth of feeling" point that you're missing. When you find the right one, the feeling is so strong and deep and lasting, that by it's very nature it must be exclusive. Anyway, each to her own. We're both happy with what we have, which is the main thing. But you do often seem to imply that mono partners are missing out, which is entirely wrong. We think poly people are missing out, actually...

[kareina.livejournal.com]

No, I don't think that the happy mono people are missing out. However, based on the statistics on the number of people who cheat (remembered from school psychology classes, so I can't really cite a source on that one), I do think that the vast majority of people are missing out. At one end of the spectrum there are people who are happily committed in a monogamistic relationship, at the other end of the spectrum there are people who are happy to have multiple relationships, each one of which has an amazing depth, richness, and intensity.

In between are the vast majority of people who are not 100% happy with what they've got, but because society says that they are "supposed" to be monogamist try to live that lifestyle, and fail--some of them time and time again. (Or, in some cases one of the two finds the monogamy easy and truly wants no one else, but the other partner cheats, and then the "faithful" one is devastated and blames themselves, when, really, the problem isn't them.)

I submit that while some of them might be happier if they just had a different partner (that mythical "right one" for whom they are truly willing to "forsake all others") many more of them would be happier if they lived in a culture which accepted that monogamy isn't the only alternative, and if they quit "cheating" and instead choose to communicate with their various partners about what they are doing with whom.

I don't wish to convert happy monogamists into a poly life, but I do want people who are poly by nature to never, ever, lie to their partners and claim to be monogamists--because when they do they give a bad name to both the monogamists they claim to be, and to the poly community, which teaches that one must be honest with all of one's partners (of whatever degree of connection) about the fact that they aren't the only person in one's life.

[eurika.livejournal.com]

With your permission, I would like to repost your entire post. I don't have to credit it as your work and can just say "a friend" or I can attach your LJ name to it. It is just such a great post, that I would like to share it with others.

[kareina.livejournal.com]

lol! After several "too inflammatory language" comments from people I've met in person, it is odd to get a "great post" comment from one of the friends I've not yet met. Feel free to re-post if you like, I'm ok with my lj name being attached, and you are welcome to link back to this journal if you want. Feel free to tell me where you are sharing it, too.

[madryn-1960.livejournal.com]

It's funny how everyone always blames the woman. I'm not speaking of polyamory here, about which I know nothing (nor do I wish to), but monogamy. If a man cheats on his partner with another woman, it is almost always the woman who gets the blame. Why? Is his dick isn't it? If he has a partner to whom he knows he should be loyal, and he breaks that bond of faith, that responsibility rests squarely with him. The "other woman" has responsibilities only to herself, and the people in her life. I blame the bible, which states clearly that women are responsible for everything men do.

Oh, and there's plenty of honesty and pleasure in monogamous relationships too, Babe! You don't have constantly seek to be with someone new to have a good time if you're with the right person. There is great joy and fulfillment in a commited monogamous relationship.

[kareina.livejournal.com]

I don't doubt that a good monogamous relationship has plenty of honesty and pleasure. I have never in my life been one to "seek someone new"--however, there are many, many wonderful people in this world, and despite not "seeking", I have fallen in love with a number of them over the years. I refuse to get romantically involved until and unless the friendship has progressed to the point that I find them lovable, but if I do I also refuse to be denied the right to be involved with them just because there are also other people I care about. I don't have to be involved with everyone I love, but neither do I wish to be told by someone other than a specific love interest that I may not.