a note I just sent

[kareina]

I just sent a note to the expert on Finnish language names in the SCA:

Hej!  A conversation just now about the fact that I especially like mestari as a title because it is the same word no matter the gender made me stop and think about the part where both my normal title, varakreivitär and my SCA surname were both chosen years before I understood that one didn't have to accept the gender that was written on one's birth certificate. Since my own gender identity is somewhere between "all genders are equally appropriate a way to describe me" and "I don't really have a gender", with a healthy dose of "I was raised female, and am used to people reacting to me as though I am", I am wondering if there is a gender neutral Finnish title for the viscounty rank? How about my surname? Is there a gendernutural "child of winter" variant of the name?  I do like my name as is (and thank you again for your help in fixing the spelling), but now I am curious if there is another variant that might suit me better? Of course, you are the obvious person to ask! 

It will be interesting to see what she says. It will be more interesting to see if the answer prompts a change in what title and/or name I use going forward.

Comments

[beanolc]

I am curious to find out!

[kareina]

The reply, complete with documentation, because she's wonderful:

"The article Kerttu wrote on Finnish names back in the 1990's (available on the net at <http://heraldry.sca.org/names/finnishnamesarticle.htm>) has several examples of a byname constructed just by adding the father's either given or byname in the genitive or less frequently as a derived adjective:

Biiörn Karhun 1563, Oluff Janotun 1563, Koko Jvnnv 1455, kösti arnikinj 1478, Laso Bengtin 1563, Ihanus Mondoneuvonen 1563

These seem to be mainly from court records; tax records tend to have names normalised to Swedish standards of the time but there's at least one case of Larss Larss Redsuen from 1643–46 at <https://kaino.kotus.fi/www/verkkojulkaisut/julk20/larsroos.php?f=folio121-122&n=larss>


So, I'd suggest Kareina Talven as the option that uses the most frequently attested pattern; Kareina Talvinen (or the Swedish Kareina Talvis) would also be possible. Also, it's widely agreed (see e.g. Marje Joalaid, Balto-Finnic Personal Name Systems, in the Proceedings of the 25th International Congress of Onomastic Sciences, Glasgow, 25–29 August 2014. Vol. 3. p. 123–130) that Finnish (and Finnic in general) colloquial name constructions have the byname before the given name (so Talven Kareina), but the surviving documents typically have the word order the other way.

I haven't been able to find a gender-neutral Finnish title for any of the royal peerages."

Now to let my subconscious dwell on the pros and cons of Talventytär vs Talven vs Talvinen...

I love long names, and unusual letters, which is a point in favour of leaving it as it is.

Talvinen is a pretty shape word, I like the i, and miss it from my first attempt to register the name, Talvi Tytär, which is bad grammar. But y's are nice too, it is a shame there isn't a variation that has both an i and a y, but I suppose that is greedy.

I suspect that Talven is a little to short for my taste, in addition to lacking both an i and a y. So, of course it is the one she sees as the most likely option. I rarely want to do what is considered normal, though in this case the reaction has nothing to do with it being "normal"...

[bjarni]

Oh I absolutely love this kind of gender/name stuff in the SCA. I'm so happy that you're starting to express the genderless side of yourself (since I'm agender and transmasculine, you might get why I like genderlessness a whole lot). My first idea for a gender neutral surname would've been Talvenlapsi (lapsi means child), but I have no idea if it's SCA appropriate or if you actually want to call yourself a child. When I was in the process of registering my name, I actually made a grammar mistake: I accidentally used the feminine form of big in old Norse, mikla. At first I thought having both feminine and masculine things in my name would be a good way to express my gender. But now that I've thought about it afterwards as a linguist, I realize the grammatical error would've just driven me nuts.